250 ie. throttle idling/ high idle rpm

[Zsolt]

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Hi guys,

I have a problem with my 250ie. scooter.
Sometimes the idle throttle is high, and in this cases the scooter can push me at the red traffic lamps, when I'm originally want stop at it.

The Piaggio mechanic sad, We need to change the complete throttle body, with ECU/MIU, stepper motor, because these are in one body unfortunately...

Did you have any problem with your idle rpm? How can I solve it?

I read many topics, sometimes poster sad, we can clean the throttle body... How can I do it?

Thanks

Zsolt

[vingiul]

Hi,
is quite a strange problem, usually in idle trottle the engine is low (and even it shuts-down) if the trottle body is dirty....
If you need to attempt to clean it manually, see http://www.beverlyclub.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=147:pulizia-corpo-farfallato-500&catid=30:meccanica-400500&Itemid=6, it is for 500 engine, but is very similar; or you can use some injector cleaner, either in the fuel or in the air-box.
Your mechanic can verify ECU parameters, and adjust them trough Piaggio instrumentation; and must try this, befor planning to change the trottle body.
vingiul

[Zsolt]

They watched the ECU information with original Piaggio ECU reader/writer/programmer and everything is normal and fine.

Results of all tests is OK.

So when I showed them my scooter in the above case (little bit higher idle rpm as the normal) on the center stand, the rear wheel spinned hardly, we can't stop it with our legs, only with rear brake. So the idle speed is high and the clutch starting open...

If I turn off and on the scooter, everything going back to normal...

I will try cleaner fluids. Which is the best?

[vingiul]

Hi,
perhaps Wurth, or Badhal.
Have your mechanic tried to lover the trottle stop? He needs ECU reader to do this, not simply screw in or out the bolt; and have hi tried to loose the cable, both the one to open and the one to recall?
vingiul

[Zsolt]

I don't understand exactly your last entence :p

They didn't try with ECU reader, when my scooter made this problem... They used ECU reader when my scooter was normal...

[vingiul]

Hi,
there is a mechanical way to lower engine rpm's (near the trottle body, there is a nut that controls the trottle valve position), but after that operation it's MANDATORY to reset the position of idle trottle memorized, via ECU reader.
Plase, see here, there are either Bev 250ie Manual (in Italian) and Bev 500 E3 Manual (in English), but operations are similar: see page 261 on Bev500 manual to zeroing the trottle, and/or see Bev250 manual if you or others are familiar to read Italian...; and on both manuals are some controls to do, to verify why trottle is too high.
vingiul

[Zsolt]

Hi,

It is very useful, BUT:
1. I have no scooter tester, which can set the initial parameters of the stepper motor
2. This is not usable on used throttle body (as the manual mention it on the top of the page 263)

What do you think?

Hi,
there is a mechanical way to lower engine rpm's (near the trottle body, there is a nut that controls the trottle valve position), but after that operation it's MANDATORY to reset the position of idle trottle memorized, via ECU reader.
Plase, see here, there are either Bev 250ie Manual (in Italian) and Bev 500 E3 Manual (in English), but operations are similar: see page 261 on Bev500 manual to zeroing the trottle, and/or see Bev250 manual if you or others are familiar to read Italian...; and on both manuals are some controls to do, to verify why trottle is too high.
vingiul

[vingiul]

Hi,
correct! I was wrong, it's not possible reset to zero the trottle valve.
So, I don't know what othe you can do to lower the rpm, except the controls suggested on manuals. I'll tink over, if I could imagine others controls.
vingiul

[lele73]

If your level of engine rpm at the minimum throttle is too high probably you need to do the reset of TPS,
this procedure is necessary to the ECU to store the position of valve when the throttle stays at the the minimum position, this procedure stores the level of millivolt that the potentiometer on the valve gives to the ECU at the minimum position and so the ECU regulates the quantity of fuel injected by step motor, probably the actual set-up is incorrect and the ECU doesn't regulate in the right way the fuel carburetion,
why now it's incorrect? Before? Probably you have the limit position slightly consumed and so the ECU setup is now incorrect

[Zsolt]

Hi,

Yes I think you are right. But if we speak about mV-s, what is stored for the normal idle position, I would like to know, why I have this fault 1-2x times a day only? And the other thing: if I turn off and on the scooter, everything going back to normal.

So sometimes the ECU thing that the normal idle mV is X mV, and in other situations it thing Y mV. And if I restart the scooter, it thing again X mV ??

If your level of engine rpm at the minimum throttle is too high probably you need to do the reset of TPS,
this procedure is necessary to the ECU to store the position of valve when the throttle stays at the the minimum position, this procedure stores the level of millivolt that the potentiometer on the valve gives to the ECU at the minimum position and so the ECU regulates the quantity of fuel injected by step motor, probably the actual set-up is incorrect and the ECU doesn't regulate in the right way the fuel carburetion,
why now it's incorrect? Before? Probably you have the limit position slightly consumed and so the ECU setup is now incorrect

[lele73]

So sometimes the ECU thing that the normal idle mV is X mV, and in other situations it thing Y mV. And if I restart the scooter, it thing again X mV ??

Excuse me but
By what do you verify this different levels of mV? By diagnosis tester? or it's a your apparent oninions? It's possible the potentiometer on the valve has a problem in its movement, in this situation you must change the Ecu. It's important you verify the real level of voltage by diagnosis tester

[Zsolt]

I read many topics about the high idle rpm problem.

Sometimes it's a lambda - probe fault, sometimes exhaust, sometomes etc...

I seen, my exhaust maybe not connected well to the engine and it can push out the exhaust gas, and can inbreathe clear oxigen. I attach some pictures. Maybe you can help me, If you see your machine from the right leg side service window and take a photo about it, or just write me what you can see.

I think the gap between the engine and the exhaust is too big.

What do you think?

So sometimes the ECU thing that the normal idle mV is X mV, and in other situations it thing Y mV. And if I restart the scooter, it thing again X mV ??

Excuse me but
By what do you verify this different levels of mV? By diagnosis tester? or it's a your apparent oninions? It's possible the potentiometer on the valve has a problem in its movement, in this situation you must change the Ecu. It's important you verify the real level of voltage by diagnosis tester

[street_hawk]

I do not think that the problem is due to the discharge of the minimum is not well anchored.
Generally these problems are to be found at the level of aspiration sleeve before the throttle body (which may be dirty) or carburettor (who might have a ruptured diaphragm or some Loose screw that allows greater access of air). just a micro crack that carburation goes to hell!
Leave the exhaust manifold seems especially well positioned and there does not seem encrustations from leakage of exhaust gases from other parts ... in the case and for your greater security about trying to see if the nuts that support it if they are loose and tighten if not overdo it 


but could not be broken the spring of the clutch and also the scooter idling rpm try again starting

[Zsolt]

Hi!

Just for the future blowers I came back with the solution:

I found a very good mechanic and after 2 weeks he found the problem: in the cooling line my thermostat was the bad part. It's characteristic was bad because it's opened and closed almost randomly.

And because the water temperature sensor is close to the thermostat in most cases it's measured cold water during the warm-up, so the ECU always made the mixture rich and richer - because it thought the water is cold. And yes, where the temp sensor measured the water on that line the water was cold, because the thermostat leaked (opened) too early or too late.

And a note about the original Piaggio service station: they always solved the easy problems. Changed break pads, oil, air filter, ignition line and of course: they mentioned I need to change the ECU. So this is why I will never go back to them.

[lele73]

Probably you have solved the problem because you have noted the thermostatic valve doesn't switch in the correct way and it opens the coolant liquid too early to the radiator, in this way the engine probably doesn't warm up and so the ECU regulates the carburation in rich way, but are you sure you don't have a problem at the temperature probe connected to the ECU? I say that because  sometimes it's this the problem. Seen you have empty the coolant circuit when you have changed the thermostatic valve in the same time you could changed the temperature probe and so you don't have dubts it have some problems, its cost is low